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VVTI-i/VVTL-i v.s. VTEC/DOHC VTEC

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    • Dec 26, 2004 2:25:56 am
    I heard alot from my friends saying that the v-tech is better than vvt-i. Do you guys have anything information about this issue? It be nice if a scion tc have 180hp w/ 163 torgue. Why 160hp? and why red line at 6 gosh. hate it. Do yah know the new rsx type s is alot faster than the scion tc also better gas mileage? is it cuz the v-tech is smarter than vvt-i?
    • Dec 26, 2004 3:16:02 am
    First off, which RSX are you talking about? the 2005 RSX or the 2005 RSX-S. The RSX-S is faster than the tC and probably has higher EPA estimates, but to make the rsx-s go faster than a tC ur gonna be spitting out 8000rpm, at which point your gas milage becomes that of an m1 abrahms tank. As to which is better, vvt-i or vvtl-i = toyota and any derivation of vtec = honda. Honda is the undisputed king of performance four bangers. (naturally aspirated at least) Now if you-re comparing the tC to the rsx-s, those are two totally different types of variable valve timing. tC would only have variable intake and the rsx-s has variable intake and exhaust valve timing.
    • Dec 26, 2004 4:44:13 pm
    Its actually VTEC. I believe that all of them are designed for optimal performance and still give good gas milage I really wish that the tC had VVTL-i but you have to remember that this motor is very big. Most motors with VTEC, VVTL-i and all the rest out there are 2.2L and under. Those motors are designed to rev high and make great power. However, they all sacrifice torque. Im sure that when the tC was designed they thought of useing a torque making motor because it wasnt going to be light. Thats another reason why our redlines are so low. The motor is a big 2.4L that makes torque. Motors that make torque dont rev very high. My Mx6 redlines at 6000rpms. Its a 2.2L motor.
    • Dec 27, 2004 8:27:28 pm
    thanks for the information guys. I guess the tc is design for turbo and sc. After all, I-m very happy w/ my tc right now. Is this the first year the tc came out or is second year?
    • Dec 28, 2004 9:14:12 pm
    this is the first year for the tC.i don-t really think it-s a fair comparison between the tC and rsx-s because they-re in a difference price category. tC = 17-18ish thousand, i thinkrsx base 5 speed = 19-20 thousandrsx-s = 22-23 thousandso if anything, the base rsx should be compared to the tC. the type s is faster and gets better gas mileage because it-s a smaller engine, ivtec, lighter weight, costs more, and actually if you drive aggressively you-ll get similar mpg to the tC.
    • Dec 29, 2004 2:37:00 am
    Its hardly a gesture to say th tC is built for S/C or TURBO. Considering the engine is toyota-code FE, its fuel economic. THe engine COULD be turb0-d or SC-d, but then again, just like any other platform, u run int0 problems force-inducing a stock n/a engine.Compression ratio ain-t PREFECT, but yes, it could def. w0rk...
    • Dec 29, 2004 1:10:52 pm
    Ahem:VTEC= Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electronic Control. Its camshaft has three lobes for each pair of intake and exhaust valves plus a corresponding rocker arm that actuates each valve. At low-mid range engine speeds the valves are opened and closed by the rocker ars following the two outboard lobes. They provide low lift and short duration. After a certain engine speed is crossed the computer sends a signal to small pistons in the rocker arms . This locks the two outboard rocker arms to the center arm, which is aligned with a higher-lift, longer-duration cam lober allowing the valves to stay open longer. In basic it lets your cams act as if you had two different sets in, one to maxmize power at low engine speed and one to maximize power at high engine speed.i-VTEC- This is the same as VTEC except the -i- means it incorporates Variable Timing Control which adjusts the phasing of the intake camshaft to continously match the engine-s air and fuel needs.VVTI-i- This is toyotas version and is much like the variable timing control in hondas. An Engine control unit monitors vatrious inputs like airflow and engine speed and uses a camshaft timing pulley it advances or retards the intake camshaft to suit the engines needs. VVTL-I This incorporates the dual lobe camshafts into the engine and allows rocker arms to move between lobes to do much of what VTEC does.
    • Dec 29, 2004 5:35:33 pm
    two classic example of these two different technology Celico GTS and Vtech Acura Integra (100% stock)after vigorous testing, Integra got the 1st place for most usable hp and torque as a street car. That-s it! No more no less. When u start modifing the car, it-s a different beast and you just can-t compare the two technology anymore.
    • Dec 29, 2004 8:56:18 pm
    -scion4cool- wrote:
    two classic example of these two different technology Celico GTS and Vtech Acura Integra (100% stock)after vigorous testing, Integra got the 1st place for most usable hp and torque as a street car. That-s it! No more no less. When u start modifing the car, it-s a different beast and you just can-t compare the two technology anymore.
    it-s VTEC, by the way :mrgreen:
    • Dec 31, 2004 2:04:14 am
    DOHC VTEC- secondary cam lobe that actuates at high rpm to give effect of low range torque and high rpm hpi-VTEC same as above with addition of VTC-variable timing control... advances or retard the intake cam based on engine load and rpmVVT-i- VTC-variable timing control... advances or retard the intake cam based on engine load and rpmVVTL-i- same as i-VTECfirst place tie....i-VTEC and VVTL-i2nd place.........DOHC VTEC3rd place.........VVT-i
    • Jan 08, 2005 4:13:58 am
    I guess they should race the price on the tC to have the VVTL-i huh? I-m sure I don-t mind paying about 2 or 3 more thousand on it, cuz is payment anyway. what do you guys think?
    • Jan 18, 2005 12:43:35 pm
    I am suprised to see no honda bashing in this thread. I currently own both a honda and a tC and the honda motor is superior imo, however I like driving the tC more. My honda is a track only car now anyways.
    • Jan 19, 2005 1:41:29 am
    -JDMTYPER- wrote:
    I am suprised to see no honda bashing in this thread. I currently own both a honda and a tC and the honda motor is superior imo, however I like driving the tC more. My honda is a track only car now anyways.
    Cause its not accepted, cause its happened before I agree that I like driving the tC more than other cars
    • Jan 23, 2005 6:27:24 pm
    ok, maybe i missed something, however i know that VTEC opens up at like 3800-4000 RPM(?) do our VVT-i-s open up. i know that under acceleration i notice a little more spunk kicking in at about 3600 or so. is that just me? and can that level be adjusted like the VTEC level can be adjusted? maybe with the greddy emanage system.
    • Jan 23, 2005 10:23:21 pm
    i think vtecs open up differently depending on the car. my roommates rsx type-s kicks in at 5800 while my parents tl type-s kicks in at around 4800. i know that the hondata chip for the rsx is suppose to make it start at around 4000 and lets u redline at 9000 but i don-t know if thats very good/safe for your car.
    • Jan 24, 2005 4:12:58 am
    vtec-i is more gradual then the vvtl-i drive a rsx type-s and it-s not such a big kick as the celica gts @ 6000rpm +vvt-i is just for low end torque and fuel efficiency. We got a 2.4L that makes 33mpg on the freeway same as a 1.8 gs-r but with .6 more liters.not bad at alli-d take vvtl-i over vtec anyday (especially now with the power-fc for celica gts)
    • Jan 24, 2005 7:53:12 am
    i see. so do the vvti-i have an -open up- rpm area?
    • Jan 27, 2005 10:47:52 pm
    -fugitive_ontherun- wrote:
    i see. so do the vvti-i have an -open up- rpm area?
    i think so, it should be somewhere around the 6k rpms
    • Jan 29, 2005 2:50:44 am
    im right there with jdmtyper.....i love my tc to death, its now my daily driver, i have a 94 integ LS/R.... which is also my track car. that motor even if it was a stock LS is alot stronger than the tc. i am gonna have to say definately....vtec is #1
    • Jan 31, 2005 5:40:34 pm
    Please, I am a long time Integra owner, GS-R with VTECH, let me put this in perspective.The TC runs on regular gas and I get about 30 MPG, I?™d say a stock well driven TC will do a 15.6@89 MPH in the ¼ mile. There is 163 ft-lbs of torque and the engine will work from 1500 in 5th gear to red line. Car weigh is at least 2930 lbs with BIG rims.Stock GS-R which has a MUCH better VTEC implementation then the Civic SI?™s 160 HP B16c (upto 2003?) got about 30 MPG too but on premium. Could not pull 1500 RPM in 5th, you needed to down shift at anything below 2200 or so and really if you needed to go anywhere you needed to drop down several gears. The B-18C had a unique dual intake runner system that kind of helped torque and MPG while the Civic did not. A stock Integra well driven could cut a 15.2 @ 91 MPH in the ¼ mile. But that is with 15 inch rims a perfect power shift through the gears, lots of clutch slip at launch some sticky tires, most guys would be lucky to do a 15.5 @ 91 MPH. The Civic was far worst VTEC implimintation: MPG was about 31 or 32 MPG but it had NO torque at all, completely inadequate tires, tin can sound deadening. 15.8 @88 MPH was a typical Civic SI B16C time. On either setup Civic or Integra you would lose a ½ second and a WHOLE bunch of drivability with a swap out to 17 inch rims, a WHOLE bunch of drivability would be gone with: headers, CAI, exhaust. Don?™t get me wrong they did much better ¼ mile with just: header, CAI, exhaust BUT drivability was WAY down blah, blah, blah down. If you get caught in the wrong gear with a VTEC you are in for a major whooping. We are talking about cars that are lucky to put 115 ft-lbs of torque to the wheels and weigh in at 2500 to 2650 lbs (Integra).So yea the VTEC Civic 1.6 (the real VTEC for both cams and for performance) has the same HP as the Scion weights in almost 400 lbs less and would be hard press to win in a race, gets about the same real world MPG in gas cost i.e. 10% better MPG but its fuel cost 10% more. Yet the VTEC has no torque, has to be properly driven for full potential, miss shifts are common and are known to bend or drop valves and lastly the performance in the real world falls sharply with the common bolt ons: rims, CAI, header, exhaust.The K20 2004 up Civic and RSX are more worthy comparisons, here the VTEC is for economy only and they seem to be economical. They both lack torque and performance falls way off when coupled to an automatic. I have not seen a Civic SI or plain RSX at the tracks but I feel they are mid to high 15 second machines when properly driven. Probably with the same or slightly slower then a stock TC. The TC has far far more torque and has a very steep final gear cluster. As an example of torque a stock K20 Civic http://www.jacksonracing....0SI%20Street%20SC.gifThat is only 116 ft-lbs to the wheels and even supercharged! It puts out maybe 5 to 10 ft-lbs more then a STOCK Scion. People BUY HP, but we drive torque.So the Civic 26 / 31 and RSX 27/34 use the VTEC for strictly economy and while these figures look very good (and are), the Camay with the same engine as the scion 7% less gear and way smaller tires and rims it is rated at: 24/34, that is right there with the RSX and the Camry is a heavier car. So what do you get from the VTEC-e? Dunno as the Camry has far more torque. IMO, VTEC and its ilk are technologies that evolve in countries like Japan, where there is a MAJOR tax and insurance penalty based on engine size. The USofA has no such penalties hence it is better to build larger engines, with more torque and less complication.On a side note, one thing I never liked about the VTEC B-18c type engines is that they don?™t have roller cam followers, so there is MAJOR wear on the cam lobs. Most non-VTEC engines have rollers or cam on bucket design. So new VTEC engines have rollers too but not the GS-R or the Civic B16 VTEC.
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