Club Scion tC

Car Candy Motor Sports
Guest Menu
- Home
- Forums
- Login
- Register
- Scion tC Rides
Scion News
Scion Generation
Scion tC Parts
Aftermarket Scion tC speed shop carries Scion tC exhaust, Scion tC intakes and more Scion tC parts at ScionGeneration.com
Club Scion tC Decals
Forum Options
Register | Login
Advanced
Viewing Thread
Home > Performance Mods > Engine Mods > Complications with HHO in a tC

Complications with HHO in a tC

Related threads: ( Click here to view )
Mayo


Reg'd: Feb 14, 2007

The Guru

I've been slacking, but Im interested in HHO technology in a tC.

But I had a few questions regarding our stock ECU. (Thanks Web and FrAnkRYzzO for helping with some HHO thoughts at the BBQ).

So lets say I have an HHO generator that connects directly to intake manifold. That means it will completely bypass the MAFS.

As the car runs, the vacuum of the intake manifold draws in air from the intake and HHO from the generator. Lets say in a hypothetical situation, for simplicity sake that the air and HHO mix in the manifold in equal parts. Thats 50% air from intake and 50% HHO from the generator.

Question 1: Now if only 50% of the air passes by the MAFS, less fuel should be mixed right? Or is the velocity of the air as oppose to volume?

Well lets say that less fuel is actually injected initially. so in our 2.4L engine, lets say 1.2 L is displaced my HHO, and the remaining 1.2L is air. And the 1.2L of air is mixed with fuel in a 14:1 (arbitrary stoichiometry) ratio.

Question 2: After its combusted, would the O2 sensor in the exhaust manifold (or other sensors), detect a super lean AFR?

Damn thats an essay. Thanks for any help I might get.


"I have an idea! An idea so smart, my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about." - Peter Griffin
-- Want to post a "For Sale" thread? Check out the rules first.
[#] Jul 22, 2008 03:27pm
FrAnkRYzzO


Reg'd: Oct 21, 2005

$upervillain
for Hire

I'll try to look into this a little more for you, but for the time being I would have to suggest using this with a piggy back system or even better, the standalone to bypass the MAF altogether.

I know that doesn't really answer the question, but I think that may have to be the solution. Hopefully I'm wrong though...

Even Zombies can Search...
..............
.......................................................................Why Can't You?!?!?!
[#] Jul 22, 2008 03:33pm
Mayo


Reg'd: Feb 14, 2007

The Guru

Haha, a stand alone system with a good tune would would solve the problem. Piggy back systems only change fuel maps at WOT right?

Either way, if I can use the stock ECU, that would be awesome. Im cheap, haha.


"I have an idea! An idea so smart, my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about." - Peter Griffin
-- Want to post a "For Sale" thread? Check out the rules first.
[#] Jul 22, 2008 03:36pm
FrAnkRYzzO


Reg'd: Oct 21, 2005

$upervillain
for Hire

Do piggy backs only change the ratio at WOT? I haven't used one before, and haven't installed mine yet. I thought on a good one you had the option to adjust several points on the curve?

I know the standalone would work fine, but since you mentioned it, I see your point about adding the HHO behind the MAF throwing off the mixture. Hopefully someone with a better understanding of the MAF will add some input here.

Even Zombies can Search...
..............
.......................................................................Why Can't You?!?!?!
[#] Jul 22, 2008 03:45pm
krdshrk


Reg'd: Sep 29, 2007

Godlike Advisor

Mayo wrote:
I've been slacking, but Im interested in HHO technology in a tC.

But I had a few questions regarding our stock ECU. (Thanks Web and FrAnkRYzzO for helping with some HHO thoughts at the BBQ).

So lets say I have an HHO generator that connects directly to intake manifold. That means it will completely bypass the MAFS.

As the car runs, the vacuum of the intake manifold draws in air from the intake and HHO from the generator. Lets say in a hypothetical situation, for simplicity sake that the air and HHO mix in the manifold in equal parts. Thats 50% air from intake and 50% HHO from the generator.

Question 1: Now if only 50% of the air passes by the MAFS, less fuel should be mixed right? Or is the velocity of the air as oppose to volume?

Well lets say that less fuel is actually injected initially. so in our 2.4L engine, lets say 1.2 L is displaced my HHO, and the remaining 1.2L is air. And the 1.2L of air is mixed with fuel in a 14:1 (arbitrary stoichiometry) ratio.

Question 2: After its combusted, would the O2 sensor in the exhaust manifold (or other sensors), detect a super lean AFR?

Damn thats an essay. Thanks for any help I might get.


The MAF sensor basically just senses an electrical charge - it's not very precise. That's why a lot of people go with a MAP sensor when tuning with boost - you tune the actual amount of air that's going through the intake manifold. I think it would lean out like crazy.


Scikotics NJ is sponsored by Lawrence Scion

2006 GReddy Turbocharged Automatic tC
220+ WHP - 14.044 @ 97.02 MPH
[#] Jul 22, 2008 03:50pm
Mayo


Reg'd: Feb 14, 2007

The Guru

Yeah, it detects change in voltage from the change in temperature. But is that from velocity or volume of air? Wikipedia says "mass". Not sure if thats true though.

edit: And if it "leans" out, thats good! Because the the actual AFR will be around 14:1. But it would only be considered lean if you factor in the HHO.

I just dont want the ECU by trying to correct the "lean" mixture. Because then I would be running rich! Haha.


"I have an idea! An idea so smart, my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about." - Peter Griffin
-- Want to post a "For Sale" thread? Check out the rules first.
[#] Jul 22, 2008 03:57pm
krdshrk


Reg'd: Sep 29, 2007

Godlike Advisor

I think it's the Volume of air moving through, and therefore, mass.


Scikotics NJ is sponsored by Lawrence Scion

2006 GReddy Turbocharged Automatic tC
220+ WHP - 14.044 @ 97.02 MPH
[#] Jul 22, 2008 03:59pm
Mayo


Reg'd: Feb 14, 2007

The Guru

Oops edited my post while you replied, haha, my bad. More concerns posted in edit

Volume is good. Im not sure how volume would affect the voltage drop along the wire in the MAFS, but for now, Ill trust that!


"I have an idea! An idea so smart, my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about." - Peter Griffin
-- Want to post a "For Sale" thread? Check out the rules first.
[#] Jul 22, 2008 04:02pm
krdshrk


Reg'd: Sep 29, 2007

Godlike Advisor

But yeah the O2 sensor would read a lean condition and it would add more fuel anyway. There's no way to bypass the stock ECU on that. Even with the Dezod Black Box I highly doubt you could tune that.... If you were going to go with this you would need a whole new ECU system.


Scikotics NJ is sponsored by Lawrence Scion

2006 GReddy Turbocharged Automatic tC
220+ WHP - 14.044 @ 97.02 MPH
[#] Jul 22, 2008 04:03pm
Mayo


Reg'd: Feb 14, 2007

The Guru

Dammit! That sucks! So even though the MAF sensor is giving one reading, the AFR will be determined by what the O2 sensor reads?

The reaction of HHO is as follows:

2 H2 + O2 ==> 2 H2O

So there is oxygen in the reactants side. Im just not sure of the equilibrium. If its the same as fuel, maybe I wont have to worry about the O2 sensor. Right? Or am I confused about how the O2 sensor works?


"I have an idea! An idea so smart, my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about." - Peter Griffin
-- Want to post a "For Sale" thread? Check out the rules first.
[#] Jul 22, 2008 04:08pm
krdshrk


Reg'd: Sep 29, 2007

Godlike Advisor

I still think you will have to worry about the O2 sensor. That + the maf signal decide how much fuel to add. I think the 2 will get confused and bad things will happen.


Scikotics NJ is sponsored by Lawrence Scion

2006 GReddy Turbocharged Automatic tC
220+ WHP - 14.044 @ 97.02 MPH
[#] Jul 22, 2008 05:03pm

TOP: Home > Performance Mods > Engine Mods > Complications with HHO in a tC



Quick Nav:
©2008 Club Scion tC - Community for Scion tC enthusiasts.