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Home > Performance Mods > Suspension & Brakes > hollow anti-sway vs solid anti-sway bar

hollow anti-sway vs solid anti-sway bar

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Mayo
Rockville
Maryland, US
  • The Guru
 Before this turns in to a hotchkis vs Progress/TRD thread Id like to collect some information, haha.

Anyone see an advantage to having hollow sway bars? Someone on SL mentioned that they are lighter. But c'mon, unless they are a couple hundred pounds lighter, I dont think It'll make a difference, haha.


"gonna wash my car before i take a nap.. can't rest well knowing i've got the entire cast of A Bug's Life on my bumper" - Vicious
-- Want to post a "For Sale" thread? Check out the rules first.
[#] Jan 25, 2008 11:23am
Orin
Auburn
Alabama, US
There is no need for a hallow sway. The weight difference is insignificant.

Solid all the way

[#] Jan 25, 2008 11:32am
FrAnkRYzzO
Perry Hall
Maryland, US
  • $upervillain
    for Hire
 ^^ Absolutely. The weight savings to the consumer is irrelevant, but a company that produces a hollow sway bar has significantly lower material production costs, so basically they get to make more money for selling an inferior product.

...............

Search or one of these adorable kittens WILL DIE!
[#] Jan 25, 2008 11:36am
Web
Maryland, US
  • THE SHADOW
 Hollow will be weaker on high stress cornering....less rigidity and the weight transfer will have a high tendency to bend the metal.


Complaining is futile when you supported the victory.
http://clubsciontc.com/fo...-rims--5x100-pattern.html
[#] Jan 25, 2008 11:42am
Mayo
Rockville
Maryland, US
  • The Guru
 Wow, so I wonder why does Hotchkis make its rear sway hollow.


"gonna wash my car before i take a nap.. can't rest well knowing i've got the entire cast of A Bug's Life on my bumper" - Vicious
-- Want to post a "For Sale" thread? Check out the rules first.
[#] Jan 25, 2008 12:00pm
supafly
Olney
Maryland, US
  • Chief Mechanic
 it saves money for them, and with their name they know its gonna sell.

just cause a tv is made by sony, doesnt mean its the best in its line, or even as high a quality as other sony tvs.

that being said, i think hollow is fine for people that get them for a daily driver or something, looking for a bit better handling but arent going to wrap their car around a dime.

[#] Jan 25, 2008 12:40pm
FrAnkRYzzO
Perry Hall
Maryland, US
  • $upervillain
    for Hire
 Even though the hotchkis rear is hollow, it's significantly bigger then the others and the metal is quite thick, so keep that in mind as well. You're definitely not losing out on quality with that sway. Now a hollow sway that is the same size as a solid one is a different story.

...............

Search or one of these adorable kittens WILL DIE!
[#] Jan 25, 2008 12:56pm
Mayo
Rockville
Maryland, US
  • The Guru
 Yeah true, the Hotchkis is 27mm while TRD and Progress are 22mm.


"gonna wash my car before i take a nap.. can't rest well knowing i've got the entire cast of A Bug's Life on my bumper" - Vicious
-- Want to post a "For Sale" thread? Check out the rules first.
[#] Jan 25, 2008 03:13pm
Orin
Auburn
Alabama, US
it would take an extreme amount of force to bend a hallow sway of the same diameter (22mm) don't you think?

It's time for a Mythbusters challenge!

[#] Jan 25, 2008 03:30pm
Mayo
Rockville
Maryland, US
  • The Guru
 Ill write to Jamie and Adam on CStC's behalf, haha.

But I dont know about the amount of force it would take. I know that a hollow 27mm sway bar(Hotchkis) is tough as balls. And equally tough is a solid 22mm sway bar(TRD). But you think a hollow 22mm sway bar would be as strong?


"gonna wash my car before i take a nap.. can't rest well knowing i've got the entire cast of A Bug's Life on my bumper" - Vicious
-- Want to post a "For Sale" thread? Check out the rules first.
[#] Jan 25, 2008 03:35pm
FrAnkRYzzO
Perry Hall
Maryland, US
  • $upervillain
    for Hire
 It's really going to be determined by the thickness of the side walls. I know that the hotchkis one is thick as hell, so I would say that it is just as sturdy, if not sturdier, then the solid 22mm ones. I'm thinking that's why they went that route.

...............

Search or one of these adorable kittens WILL DIE!
[#] Jan 25, 2008 03:39pm
brianc500
Kalamazoo
Michigan, US
  • Master Mechanic
 Hold on a minute guys before you start jumping on the I hate hotchkins band wagon Lil. The reason some company's offer a hollow sway bar compared to a solid is for adjust ability.

-I personally own about 35 different sway bars for my race car, all being different diameters. Also some are hollow and some are solid.

-The reason is that the hollow bars allow to twist slightly better depending on how much bar you need. For example, when racing at a very flat track I use a 2 1/2 inch diameter bar so when I enter the corner the bar resists flexing resulting in minimal body roll and the left front tire stays flat and planted firmly for traction. At tracks with a progressive bank I want a little less bar so the car can "roll" through the corners and the weight can transfer to the right rear for corner exit bite.

-So to sum it up the 2 different styles of sway bar give you a choice for setup. 1 solid bar with "soft" springs close to stock spring rate will result in a good handling car. 2 hollow bar with a rigid spring rate will give the car a chance to transfer weight slower so when you pitch it into a corner the rear end won't want to com around on you.

"Losing is often a temporary condition, giving up makes it permanent."
[#] Jan 25, 2008 06:41pm
dsm3383
Rochester
New York, US
  • Scion Guru
 First of all there is not enough information to acutally make any determination between the Progress and Hotchkis sway bars.

How much material does not dictate strength. The material itself plays a major role. Progress may be made of aluminum while the Hotchkis being made of steel. In reality with one being hollow and the other solid but different materials could equal same strength.

So, many factors really contribute to the design and how effective it is. During my undergraduate career I actually reverse engineered a Subura WRX aftermarket frame brace. I looked at materials, solid bar cross-section, and hollow bar cross-section with varying the thickness to optimize the current design. I used FEA to perform analysis for strength and vibrations.

From my study the biggest factor was really the material. A hollow bar construction from a solid bar construction had little impact on overall strength. Really Hotchkis may actually have a better sway bar that costs less to manufacture because they spent more time in development. The hollow bar actually showed a lot higher frequency for vibrations which is a better design. That was interesting.

So, to really answer this question I would need more information and reverse engineer both sway bars for an analysis that is correct.

I also concur with the upper statement too. Specific application may also play a role in the design differences. Remember a sway bar is part of your suspension. And in all actuality its pure intent is to be an extra "spring". It adds torsional resistance to your suspension increasing the stiffness (which is what a spring does) of your overall suspension. For racing applications, type of track or race type of either circuit or drag, will have a factor in how you want your suspension to behave.



Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

-Ben Franklin
[#] Jan 25, 2008 08:28pm
brianc500
Kalamazoo
Michigan, US
  • Master Mechanic
 Damn it would be awesome to do some dynamic FEA modeling with my race car. I think my boss would dis approve but man it would make it so much easier to build chassis. A few of my engineering buddies are begging me to take them to the track so we can do some hard core DOE lol. Good point though, material strength is a key factor in this equation. Reverse engineering is how we validate the strength and k factors in a large majority of our products.

"Losing is often a temporary condition, giving up makes it permanent."
[#] Jan 25, 2008 09:58pm
Mayo
Rockville
Maryland, US
  • The Guru
 The Progress bar is made of aluminum? Ahh, that pisses me off. Less rigid right?

Anyway, dsm3383, what do the vibrations in a hollow sway bar do for the handling?


"gonna wash my car before i take a nap.. can't rest well knowing i've got the entire cast of A Bug's Life on my bumper" - Vicious
-- Want to post a "For Sale" thread? Check out the rules first.
[#] Jan 25, 2008 11:59pm
FrAnkRYzzO
Perry Hall
Maryland, US
  • $upervillain
    for Hire
 I think he was just using the aluminum as a hypothetical example. Pretty sure the progress bar is not made from aluminum.

Our engineers can correct me on this, but aluminum wouldn't be a good choice for suspension components due to the fact that it retains stress fractures from use over time. This is why aircraft are retired after set periods of time. A component made from aluminum is designed to hold a certain amount of force, but it cannot hold that same force indefinitely like steel.

...............

Search or one of these adorable kittens WILL DIE!
[#] Jan 26, 2008 11:21am
dsm3383
Rochester
New York, US
  • Scion Guru
FrAnkRYzzO wrote:
I think he was just using the aluminum as a hypothetical example. Pretty sure the progress bar is not made from aluminum.

Our engineers can correct me on this, but aluminum wouldn't be a good choice for suspension components due to the fact that it retains stress fractures from use over time. This is why aircraft are retired after set periods of time. A component made from aluminum is designed to hold a certain amount of force, but it cannot hold that same force indefinitely like steel.


Aluminium is used all over the place in automotives. Yes, aluminum is a type of material that has no "infinite life" when designing with failure analysis in mind.

They retire aircraft because of aluminum and because aircraft are used for 20-30 years non-stop. Cars lifetime are so short in comparison and if something breaks your not in the "air" haha.

Just a heads up.

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

-Ben Franklin
[#] Jan 26, 2008 11:31am
dsm3383
Rochester
New York, US
  • Scion Guru
Mayo wrote:
The Progress bar is made of aluminum? Ahh, that pisses me off. Less rigid right?

Anyway, dsm3383, what do the vibrations in a hollow sway bar do for the handling?


Well your vehicle sees vibrations constantly so designing with vibrations in mind is a MUST for the automotive market. At work we have a mult-axis simulation table (MAST) which is a chamber that exhibits complete road profiles to our products and components while going through thermal profiles of extreme temperatures. That is one sick chamber yo!

Vibrations also will put wear and fatigue on components which can result in failure.

Vibrations are a huge part for customer satisfaction. There are resonant frequencies that make a human body sick. Your suspension design is what holds the resonant frequency you see while driving your car so it is important in design consideration.

Race cars though do produce these resonant frequencies cause the driver is used to and prone to these frequencies because having low frequencies is a performance inhibitor in suspensions.

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

-Ben Franklin
[#] Jan 26, 2008 11:45am
dsm3383
Rochester
New York, US
  • Scion Guru
brianc500 wrote:
Damn it would be awesome to do some dynamic FEA modeling with my race car. I think my boss would dis approve but man it would make it so much easier to build chassis. A few of my engineering buddies are begging me to take them to the track so we can do some hard core DOE lol. Good point though, material strength is a key factor in this equation. Reverse engineering is how we validate the strength and k factors in a large majority of our products.


I am surprised your company does not utilize FEA for chassis and suspension. It is a huge tool and can cut so much time for development of new components! Get on your boss's ass about it hahah!

What Design of Experiments (DOE) are you planning on doing on the track with your buddies? Sounds interesting! Let me know!

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

-Ben Franklin
[#] Jan 26, 2008 11:52am

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