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Home > Performance Mods > Engine Mods > Superchargers vs Turbos

Superchargers vs Turbos

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justDstart3
Camp Pendleton
California, US
  • Vehicle Designer
 just wanna learn a lil more bout the difference between superchargers and turbochargers.. and all i know is that the turbochargers uses the heat from the exhaust and it is better then superchargers.. but thats all i know.. just wanna know more before when i get to that point i know what i should get..



"Passion is in the blood. Desire is in the will. Prepare to be mentally strong. Till the day the earth stood still. Everyone in the world will turn. Up as they glance upon you. Everyone will witness as your weakness will burn. As you will be reborn to someone true. The passion, desire and will is all you need in life." *by me*
[#] Jan 21, 2008 07:20pm
tC_vixen
New Jersey, US
If you have a straight engine, not used in a dragster, consider installing a Turbocharger. Turbochargers are less expensive, but require some engineering. Alternatively, you can consider a Supercharger. Do some market research as to the type, size, lubrication, cooling and gearing required. If you are building a dragster, you should install a Supercharger. Most Supercharger manufacturers offer kits and provide very helpful advice.

Turbochargers fit easily on straight 4 or 6 cylinder engines. They must be fitted as close as possible to the head.

Turbochargers run very hot, just short of melting down. Therefore, the Turbocharger surrounding must be well insulated from radiating heat. It is advisable, that the engine must be kept idling for a minute or two after heavy use before switching off. Turbochargers are water-cooled.

Turbochargers run hot because they rely on the exhaust gas velocity, which is directly proportional to the temperature.

Turbochargers have turbo lag, i.e. the time it takes to wind the "fan" up. This is less noticeable with automatics or during manual gear shift, but very noticeable during a "standing start".

Turbochargers are more commonly used in diesel engines.

Turbochargers are used more frequently in Europe because smaller engines (4 cylinders) are more common.

Turbochargers require a special exhaust branch, which must be made of high temperature material. And if possible with no heat expansion! Otherwise your exhaust branch gasket will not last.

You can fit two Turbochargers on a V6 or V8, it will work, but you must choose the type of Turbochargers carefully. You also need to consider that you'll have twice the radiation heat problem and twice the cost.

Superchargers are used exclusively in acceleration racing, because the turbo's lag can't be tolerated.
Another way to explain a Turbo's lag, is that a Turbocharger works on the chain reaction principle. It is the starting of the chain which produces the lag. Let's assume the engine idles and so does the turbo. The boost pressure is ZERO. Then you open the throttle to a particular point and keep it there. The engine operates in a decompressed state and produces very little power. The little power it makes raises the exhaust gas temperature and velocity. This makes the turbo spin a little faster and raises the boost pressure, which in turn makes a little more power, which in turn.....(the chain reaction sets in). The chain reaction is limited by the waste gate regulation, and the airflow through the butterflies. Also, the Turbocharger can limit the boost pressure, or RPM limits can come in to play, or your engine could blow up.

Depending on the type of Supercharger you are considering, the fitting varies from being almost impossible to as easy as fitting an air-conditioner pump.

Turbochargers are used on constant load engines such as trucks, marine engines and power-plants.

There are many types of Superchargers, but only one type of Turbocharger. The selection of the correct size and manufacturer of either Turbocharger or Supercharger is an art, which should be left to the experts. Many technical books have been written about it and free advice is available from the manufacturers of Turbochargers or Superchargers.

When you look at the boost pressure curve of Turbochargers and Superchargers, the Superchargers don't look too impressive. This is because they have to be geared to produce the maximum boost pressure at high RPM. In comparison, a Turbocharger has a regulation device built in, which opens a "waste gate" once the maximum boost has been reached.

The Turbocharger's curve doesn't explain or show the Turbo's lag!

A Turbocharger produces more power at low RPM. This is because a well-selected Turbocharger produces the maximum boost between 2000 to 2500 RPM, when the waste gate starts to open. In the latest Turbocharger designs, the turbo fan has become smaller, the waste gate bigger, and the turbo speed higher.

Turbochargers can't really produce very high boost pressure, above 1.5bar (21psi). Someone will prove me wrong, I am sure, but Turbochargers are used normally between 0.4 to 1.2 bar (6psi to 17psi).

Superchargers are more predictable in engineering terms. From the manufacturer's data you can choose the correct gearing for the desired boost pressure and RPM.

Superchargers are more expensive and difficult to manufacture.

Superchargers heat the boost air to the same extent as a Turbocharger.


http://perfectpower.com/technical_info/turbovs.asp





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[#] Jan 21, 2008 07:26pm
tC_vixen
New Jersey, US
How a Turbocharger works w/ Video:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question122.htm





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[#] Jan 21, 2008 07:28pm
justDstart3
Camp Pendleton
California, US
  • Vehicle Designer
tC_vixen wrote:


wow.. haha.. well i know now.. coo thanks for the info.. very helpful.. cuz theres this guy here on base sellin me his supercharger.. but i said nah cuz its not goin to be warrentied.. so yah.. thanks alot.. *rev it up for ya*



"Passion is in the blood. Desire is in the will. Prepare to be mentally strong. Till the day the earth stood still. Everyone in the world will turn. Up as they glance upon you. Everyone will witness as your weakness will burn. As you will be reborn to someone true. The passion, desire and will is all you need in life." *by me*
[#] Jan 21, 2008 07:33pm
nick06tc
Virginia, US
  • Scion Guru
 A real REAL quick rundown.

A turbo doesnt run of heat.
A turbo and a supercharger are both pumps/compressors/turbines.
They take air and compress it and pump it into the engine.

Turbo uses the speed of the exhuast gases to turn the shaft the compresses the air. Think of a windmill, air turns the fins which makes it rotate. On the turbo, the exhuast turns the fins that rotate the compressor.

A supercharger uses a belt/chain from the crantshaft to turn the compressor and compress the air.

Thats the quick rundown.

[#] Jan 21, 2008 07:45pm
justDstart3
Camp Pendleton
California, US
  • Vehicle Designer
nick06tc wrote:
A real REAL quick rundown.

A turbo doesnt run of heat.
A turbo and a supercharger are both pumps/compressors/turbines.
They take air and compress it and pump it into the engine.

Turbo uses the speed of the exhuast gases to turn the shaft the compresses the air. Think of a windmill, air turns the fins which makes it rotate. On the turbo, the exhuast turns the fins that rotate the compressor.

A supercharger uses a belt/chain from the crantshaft to turn the compressor and compress the air.

Thats the quick rundown.




so if u had a choice for ur tc.. which of the two would u get? and why?




"Passion is in the blood. Desire is in the will. Prepare to be mentally strong. Till the day the earth stood still. Everyone in the world will turn. Up as they glance upon you. Everyone will witness as your weakness will burn. As you will be reborn to someone true. The passion, desire and will is all you need in life." *by me*
[#] Jan 21, 2008 07:50pm
SoFloTC
Boca Raton
Florida, US
  • Godlike Advisor
 turbo. the only superchargers avail for the the TC is the TRD one which is complete crap if your looking for good power. It gives you around 40 hp .. a turbo can easily give you 100

[#] Jan 21, 2008 07:58pm
Aviator213
Hagerstown
Maryland, US
  • Scion Guru
 turbo will help your gas milage as well...as long as you keep it out of boost. Which you do during normal driving, but when you unleash the beast and let her fly, it will eat up the gas a little bit quicker





[#] Jan 21, 2008 08:14pm
SoFloTC
Boca Raton
Florida, US
  • Godlike Advisor
 does it really? i never heard of that? in auto ur always in boost though correct?

[#] Jan 21, 2008 08:15pm
Aviator213
Hagerstown
Maryland, US
  • Scion Guru
sofresh23 wrote:
does it really? i never heard of that? in auto ur always in boost though correct?


depends on how the dyno-tuning was done and when you hit max boost, if the turbo is tuned to hit boost at a lower RPM then it wont help much, but most turbos dont really start to hit serious boost until around 3700-4000 RPM. At least the turbo's ive dealt with before

the way a turbo works is it packs more air into the motor so more fuel is burnt up and there isnt as much left over after the fuel and air ignite and push the piston. when it doesnt waste as much fuel you'll get better gas milage...as long as you keep it out of boost





[#] Jan 21, 2008 08:17pm
nick06tc
Virginia, US
  • Scion Guru
justDstart3 wrote:
nick06tc wrote:
A real REAL quick rundown.

A turbo doesnt run of heat.
A turbo and a supercharger are both pumps/compressors/turbines.
They take air and compress it and pump it into the engine.

Turbo uses the speed of the exhuast gases to turn the shaft the compresses the air. Think of a windmill, air turns the fins which makes it rotate. On the turbo, the exhuast turns the fins that rotate the compressor.

A supercharger uses a belt/chain from the crantshaft to turn the compressor and compress the air.

Thats the quick rundown.




so if u had a choice for ur tc.. which of the two would u get? and why?



If I had a choice again, I would go turbo. I have a supercharger now.
On most cars its good. But on the tC, ITS CRAP. The power gains aren't that great. Usually around 50-60WHP. The lag is horrible, and the reliability sucks.
But it is warrantied if you don't mess with it.
I am going on my third supercharger.
[#] Jan 21, 2008 08:40pm
dsm3383
Rochester
New York, US
  • Scion Guru
 A turbocharger is a type of supercharger!!!

Turbine-driven centrifugal supercharger is the real terminology for a turbo.

Just a heads up for peeps!

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

-Ben Franklin
[#] Jan 21, 2008 08:53pm
justDstart3
Camp Pendleton
California, US
  • Vehicle Designer
 hey thanks thats alot of info.. haha.. but feel free to keep addin on.. im learnin sumthin new..



"Passion is in the blood. Desire is in the will. Prepare to be mentally strong. Till the day the earth stood still. Everyone in the world will turn. Up as they glance upon you. Everyone will witness as your weakness will burn. As you will be reborn to someone true. The passion, desire and will is all you need in life." *by me*
[#] Jan 21, 2008 09:10pm
dsm3383
Rochester
New York, US
  • Scion Guru
justDstart3 wrote:
hey thanks thats alot of info.. haha.. but feel free to keep addin on.. im learnin sumthin new..


Wikipedia and How Things Work are great tools to use to introduce yourself to these concepts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercharger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wastegate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boost_controller

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/supercharger.htm

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

-Ben Franklin
[#] Jan 21, 2008 09:15pm
justDstart3
Camp Pendleton
California, US
  • Vehicle Designer
dsm3383 wrote:
justDstart3 wrote:
hey thanks thats alot of info.. haha.. but feel free to keep addin on.. im learnin sumthin new..


Wikipedia and How Things Work are great tools to use to introduce yourself to these concepts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercharger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wastegate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boost_controller

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/supercharger.htm

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm



thanks.. alot of info there.. haha.. gotta let my brain rest for a sec.. but thanks for the links..



"Passion is in the blood. Desire is in the will. Prepare to be mentally strong. Till the day the earth stood still. Everyone in the world will turn. Up as they glance upon you. Everyone will witness as your weakness will burn. As you will be reborn to someone true. The passion, desire and will is all you need in life." *by me*
[#] Jan 21, 2008 09:39pm
dsm3383
Rochester
New York, US
  • Scion Guru
 No problem man. If you have any specific questions just hit me up.

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

-Ben Franklin
[#] Jan 21, 2008 09:42pm
justDstart3
Camp Pendleton
California, US
  • Vehicle Designer
dsm3383 wrote:
No problem man. If you have any specific questions just hit me up.


i will.. thanks..



"Passion is in the blood. Desire is in the will. Prepare to be mentally strong. Till the day the earth stood still. Everyone in the world will turn. Up as they glance upon you. Everyone will witness as your weakness will burn. As you will be reborn to someone true. The passion, desire and will is all you need in life." *by me*
[#] Jan 21, 2008 09:53pm
flintmica08
Ohio, US
  • Detailer
 for all you Turbo owners out there....What is reliability of them? I have heard the supercharger is pretty complex and has been blowin up on a lot of people on the site. Any kind of trouble on that with the Turbo kits out there?

[#] Jan 21, 2008 10:16pm
dsm3383
Rochester
New York, US
  • Scion Guru
flintmica08 wrote:
for all you Turbo owners out there....What is reliability of them? I have heard the supercharger is pretty complex and has been blowin up on a lot of people on the site. Any kind of trouble on that with the Turbo kits out there?


Well the rule of thumb is turbos will decrease the life of your engine by 60%. Turbos are high maintanence if your planning on having it as a daily driver.

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

-Ben Franklin
[#] Jan 21, 2008 10:18pm
flintmica08
Ohio, US
  • Detailer
 ha when you look at it that way it makes you not want to get one

[#] Jan 21, 2008 10:32pm
dsm3383
Rochester
New York, US
  • Scion Guru
flintmica08 wrote:
ha when you look at it that way it makes you not want to get one


Well if you take care of your ride then you should'nt have any issues.

A turbo is a lover of oil. Because it uses the engines oil it also decreases the life of your oil. It is recommended to change the oil more frequently and make sure your oil level is where it needs to be.

Pretty much you have higher wear on your engine since you are displacing more power (heat, friction, and pressure). This happens with whatever you do to produce more power from the stock engine. All it means in reality is your maintenence schedule is changed (more oil changes, spark plugs replaced more frequently, etc..).

You will lose the reliability of your car from it's OEM manufactured life by altering anything really. When your modding your takin chances. If you want something that is never going to break down or give you problems then modding is probaly not the road you want to travel.

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

-Ben Franklin
[#] Jan 21, 2008 10:41pm
justDstart3
Camp Pendleton
California, US
  • Vehicle Designer
dsm3383 wrote:
flintmica08 wrote:
ha when you look at it that way it makes you not want to get one


Well if you take care of your ride then you should'nt have any issues.

A turbo is a lover of oil. Because it uses the engines oil it also decreases the life of your oil. It is recommended to change the oil more frequently and make sure your oil level is where it needs to be.

Pretty much you have higher wear on your engine since you are displacing more power (heat, friction, and pressure). This happens with whatever you do to produce more power from the stock engine. All it means in reality is your maintenence schedule is changed (more oil changes, spark plugs replaced more frequently, etc..).



so in that being said..do u have to mess with the pistons and sleeves as well?




"Passion is in the blood. Desire is in the will. Prepare to be mentally strong. Till the day the earth stood still. Everyone in the world will turn. Up as they glance upon you. Everyone will witness as your weakness will burn. As you will be reborn to someone true. The passion, desire and will is all you need in life." *by me*
[#] Jan 21, 2008 10:43pm
dsm3383
Rochester
New York, US
  • Scion Guru
justDstart3 wrote:
so in that being said..do u have to mess with the pistons and sleeves as well?


The 2AZ-FE motor is sleeved stock. The motor is designed to hold 10 psi of boost since TRD does offer the supercharger that does not void your warranty.

Pistons are if you want to change your compression ratio to either high compression (11:1) for a N/A motor or low compression (8:5:1)for the ability to add more boost.

You will not need to do anything with the stock internals unless your planning on making a race car. The all-in-one turbo kits available are designed to work off the stock internals. So, if your planning on a custom high boost set-up then you might want to consider updating your internals.

Headwork is recommend though (port 'n polish). This is very restrictive on our engine and opening the head up will lower the negative pressure your engine will see.

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

-Ben Franklin
[#] Jan 21, 2008 10:49pm
greddytc05
Hagerstown
Maryland, US
  • Vehicle Designer
 oops deleated.

Car is being put on hold until further notice. Work will continue pending on if i get the new toy i want or not. I will keep you all posted.

UPDATE ON THE TUNE. It went ok but a few little issues that are causing my performance to be less than expected have shown themselves. Now I have to resolve them when I get the chance and it will be back to PTuning for the finishing touches.

"warning: friends dont let friends learn to drive from watching the fast and furious." me

BOUGHT,BUILT,PAYED FOR BY ME




'05 BSP TC 5 Speed 255.13hp 286.34tq. 13.708@101.07mph. 60'-2.114 on street tires and stock clutch. More to come.
[#] Jan 22, 2008 06:32am
greddytc05
Hagerstown
Maryland, US
  • Vehicle Designer
 just to clear up a couple of other things that have been said. when it comes to drag racing these days it has been found by a lot of people that superchargeing isn't always the best way to go anymore. more and more people with small block and big block v8's are starting to go with either one or two very large turbochargers and making it down the track very fast. plenty of guys are useing one or two 100mm and larger turbos on there cars and running 6's in the 1/4 with no problem.

different turbos depending on the size of the turbo compaired to the size of the motor depends on how much lag you will see. now when it comes to lag from a dead stop at the drag strip that is eliminated usind a two step. or if you are in an automatic just use the stahl to spool it up before pulling up to the beam. by doing this you will have a certain set amount of boost even with the car sitting still. anymore dealing with lag is mostly in how the vehicle is tuned and set up. there is a point that the turbo is going to have lag no matter what but with a proper tune some of it can be avoided. but not always.

yes sometimes you need to let the turbo cool down a little before shutting the car off but it isn't always needed. it all depends on how hard the car has been ran in a short period of time. also not all turbos are water cooled. some are both water and oil fed and others are just oil.

the turbo has been used on cars for a long time now. not just primarily diesels. they do use them on diesels a lot but if you look at a lot of different vehicles in the mid to late 80's you will find a wide variety of cars that had turbos on them. ford, gm, and chrysler all experimented with turbos. chrysler especially. they put a turbo on just about everything. they had multiple cars, and even vans that had the turbo under the hood.

the amount of boost that a turbo produces is maintained by the wastegate. the wastegate has a vacume line that runs to it. using the vacume line and internal springs the wastegate regulates the amount of boost that is being sent into the motor. by changing the springs inside the wastegate will allow it to handle more boost to a point. the supercharger is belt driven. the amount of boost that is produced depends on the size of the pulley. the smaller the pulley the faster the supercharger spins creating more boost. the downfall to the supercharger is the engine has to use power to be able to spin one more thing with the belt. because of this the supercharger can't create the same amount of power with the same amount of boost as a turbo would.

turbo lag is actually visible on a dyno graph. when looking at a graph of a car that is experiancing a lot of lag you will see how for the first lets say 3500 rpm the power curve barely goes anywhere. then when the turbo starts to spool up faster the graph will suddenly shoot up and produce power quickly. a supercharger however will be making boost as soon as you touch the gas because it is constantly spinning at the same speed as the motor. that is why they don't produce lag. that is also why the power band of a supercharger isn't as aggressive and doesn't give you that sudden push back into the seat like a turbo does.

a turbo produces its power in the mid to upper rpm range. depending on the size of the turbo and how fast it spools depends on how low in the mid range it makes its full power. a turbo starts to spool at a low rpm but isn't makeing peak boost yet. again with proper tuning you can get the peak boost a little lower but again depending on the size of the turbo depends on how much lower you will be able to get it to hit full boost. the wastegate will stay closed until you hit the desired full boost setting. for example if your car is tuned to only go as high as 15lbs. of boost then the wastegate doesn't open until you hit 15lbs. that is when it opens to bleed off the exhaust flow so that it doesn't produce more boost.

one way to make a turbo produce more boost and quicker is by changeing the exhaust side turbine(also refered to as the hot side by some) to a smaller wheel. by doing this it will spool faster. then to create more boost you install a larger pressure side. this is what people with dsm's do. they maintain a stock turbo but they modify the internals of the turbo to be able to creat more power with a stock turbo. this is when you start to hear people talk about the 16g, big 16g, 18g, and 20g. also if you hear someone refer to a turbo as being a bastard that just means that they took apart the turbo and changed the wheels to create more power with a faster spool time. for example a friend of mine has a gt35 turbo on his car. but they took out the compressor wheel and swapped if for one out of a gt40. so now the turbo still spools as fast as a gt35 but can now produce power more towards the level of the gt40.

every 0.1 bar of boost pressure is approximatly 1.47lbs. of boost. so 0.5 bar would be 7.35lbs.,1.0 bar is 14.7lbs.,1.5 bar is 22.05lbs.,2.0 bar is 29.4lbs. of boost and so on and so on. a turbocharger depending on what it is designed for and how large it is can produce extreme amounts of boost. my friend who has the turbo mentioned above (the gt35 with the gt40 compressor wheel) has an sti that is currently using just under 30lbs. of boost. the turbo is capable of producing more but that is all it is currently tuned for. other cars are using up to 50lbs. of boost if built for it.

when it comes to a supercharger and how hot the air is, it isn't nearly as hot as the charge air of a turbo. just like turbochargers a supercharger can be used with an intercooler. there are multiple styles of intercoolers that are used more comonly with superchargers than they are with turbochargers. it mostly depends on the set up of the supercharger. there are also multiple types of superchargers. you have the centrifugal which is shaped a lot like a turbo. then you also have a roots supercharger. the trd supercharger that is made for our cars is a centrifugal. a roots is the kind that replaces most if not the entire intake manifold on a vehicle. again depends on the design of the blower kit. the centrifugal and roots are the two main designs. others designs have been made off of these for other puposes. for example the blitz supercharger kit for the scion xb is a roots blower. but they designed it with a compressor on off switch like you would find on an a/c unit so that the boost pressure can be adjusted inside the vehicle or even turned off if desired.

when i comes to how far away from the motor the turbo has to be mounted that is rapidly becomeing a different story than most of us are use to. for example, a company called STS (Squires Turbo Systems) started to develope turbo kits that mounts the turbo or turbo's back by the rear bumper. it has actually been found to not loose much boost pressure even over the extra pipeing that is needed to route to the rear of the vehicle. it has also been proven to obviously provide better cooling considering the turbo and everything is under the vehicle getting constant wind blowing over it. you can find the STS turbo kits or atleast kits that have been copied in design from the STS kits on a wide variety of vehicles now a days. you can find them on corvettes, camaros, mustangs, and even different trucks. they are a growing success.

also when it comes to driving around it doesn't matter how low of an rpm the boost starts to kick in. that is mostly only at full throttle. if you aren't giving the car enough throttle to produce enough exhaust pressure to spool the turbo up your not going to produce boost. you can run the car all the way to redline and never touch boost as long as you don't give it enough throttle. example: if the turbo doesn't start spooling up enough to create boost until you give the car atleast 35% or more throttle then it will not hit boost as long as you keep it below 35% throttle. you can still accelerate up the rpm range and never touch boost.

by driving in that manner around town you can still get good gas mileage since you aren't going into boost. now since a supercharger start to create boost as soon as the throttle is touched it could actually have worse gas mileage. this also all depends on how well the car is tuned. really the only way a turbo is going to eat up your oil( which it can not saying it wont) is if your constantly having to take it into boost causing the egt's(exhaust gas temp.) to rise which will warm up the entire unit. by doing this it will then warm up the oil passing through the turbo. one way to prevent this some is to add an oil cooler to your car. this will be mounted to the front of the car so that air can pass over it like your radiator and intercooler. keeping the oil a little cooler and allowing it to last a little longer. also running thicker oil helps because it doesn't break down as fast and helps keep the engine and turbo better lubricated. but when it comes to spark plugs and things like that yes it can still take just as much of a toll on the motor as a turbo because it is still produceing boost also.

the turbo and supercharger both have pros and cons. but the turbo honestly has more pros than cons(which is why i went turbo) in my opinion. that is why you see so many more cars on the drag strip that are turbo instead of supercharged these days. some people are even swapping out the supercharger for the turbocharger because of how much easier it is to get power with a turbo than a supercharger.

ok i'm tired and going to bed now...lol.




Car is being put on hold until further notice. Work will continue pending on if i get the new toy i want or not. I will keep you all posted.

UPDATE ON THE TUNE. It went ok but a few little issues that are causing my performance to be less than expected have shown themselves. Now I have to resolve them when I get the chance and it will be back to PTuning for the finishing touches.

"warning: friends dont let friends learn to drive from watching the fast and furious." me

BOUGHT,BUILT,PAYED FOR BY ME




'05 BSP TC 5 Speed 255.13hp 286.34tq. 13.708@101.07mph. 60'-2.114 on street tires and stock clutch. More to come.
[#] Jan 22, 2008 06:37am
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