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Home > Performance Mods > Suspension & Brakes > Suspension: Front end lower than Rear?

Suspension: Front end lower than Rear?

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curtislo9 Washington, US Master Mechanic	First of all I don't really get the drops of suspension. Tein S-Techs have a drop of (front 2.4, rear 2.0) While... Tanabe Df210 (front 1.7, rear 2.2) I don't understand why the front end of the Teins are a bigger drop than the front end of the Tanabes. Doesn't the front end usually have a smaller drop than the rear end?
[#] Sep 21, 2007 12:57am
Triniosito Orlando Florida, US Godlike Advisor	Thats Wat They State For Teh Drop But If Look At Cars With Them It Doesnt Look Like That low
[#] Sep 21, 2007 12:59am
curtislo9 Washington, US Master Mechanic	True, but both of these springs are for the Scion tC.
[#] Sep 21, 2007 01:00am
nickah Vehicle Designer	it's all about personal preference. The tanabes are clearly aiming for a look where the car looks flatter, and isn't leaning forward. You can't learn me nothin...
[#] Sep 21, 2007 01:00am
Triniosito Orlando Florida, US Godlike Advisor	nickah wrote: it's all about personal preference. The tanabes are clearly aiming for a look where the car looks flatter, and isn't leaning forward. ^^^ It Gives the lowest drop supposidly
[#] Sep 21, 2007 01:02am
Rabid_Lemming Cumming Georgia, US Scion Guru	curtislo9 wrote: I don't understand why the front end of the Teins are a bigger drop than the front end of the Tanabes. Doesn't the front end usually have a smaller drop than the rear end? This is called the rake angle of the car. Although it is almost purely cosmetic on our cars, the reasoning behind the forward rake angle is that since the path through which the air will travel is smaller where it begins (front of car) than where it ends (rear of car) a low pressure environment under the car is attained. This in conjunction with the air flowing over the car creating downforce helps the car stick to the road better under high speed conditions. So while it gives the car a more aggressive stance, it does actually have a function as well, but only at higher speeds. My car isn't the fastest car out there, but I'll tell ya.... Sometimes I haul more ass than a pimp driving a caddy full of hoes. Me to Pathik at PRacing.com about modding cars "It's like crack, but you don't lose as much weight...also you don't blow people for performance parts. So I guess it's nothing like crack"
[#] Sep 21, 2007 01:45am
swiftprov Naperville Illinois, US Scion Guru	Rabid_Lemming wrote: curtislo9 wrote: I don't understand why the front end of the Teins are a bigger drop than the front end of the Tanabes. Doesn't the front end usually have a smaller drop than the rear end? This is called the rake angle of the car. Although it is almost purely cosmetic on our cars, the reasoning behind the forward rake angle is that since the path through which the air will travel is smaller where it begins (front of car) than where it ends (rear of car) a low pressure environment under the car is attained. This in conjunction with the air flowing over the car creating downforce helps the car stick to the road better under high speed conditions. So while it gives the car a more aggressive stance, it does actually have a function as well, but only at higher speeds. so basically it turns the entire car into a spoiler... basically?
[#] Sep 21, 2007 01:48am
Rabid_Lemming Cumming Georgia, US Scion Guru	swiftprov wrote: Rabid_Lemming wrote: curtislo9 wrote: I don't understand why the front end of the Teins are a bigger drop than the front end of the Tanabes. Doesn't the front end usually have a smaller drop than the rear end? This is called the rake angle of the car. Although it is almost purely cosmetic on our cars, the reasoning behind the forward rake angle is that since the path through which the air will travel is smaller where it begins (front of car) than where it ends (rear of car) a low pressure environment under the car is attained. This in conjunction with the air flowing over the car creating downforce helps the car stick to the road better under high speed conditions. So while it gives the car a more aggressive stance, it does actually have a function as well, but only at higher speeds. so basically it turns the entire car into a spoiler... basically? Yeah....but then I couldn't use cool terms like "rake angle" and "low pressure environment" if I said it like that My car isn't the fastest car out there, but I'll tell ya.... Sometimes I haul more ass than a pimp driving a caddy full of hoes. Me to Pathik at PRacing.com about modding cars "It's like crack, but you don't lose as much weight...also you don't blow people for performance parts. So I guess it's nothing like crack"
[#] Sep 21, 2007 01:50am
swiftprov Naperville Illinois, US Scion Guru	ic ic hahaa
[#] Sep 21, 2007 01:51am
curtislo9 Washington, US Master Mechanic	So Tanabe DF210's give me a greater chance of scraping than the s-techs?
[#] Sep 21, 2007 02:29am
andino Manhattan Beach California, US Godlike Advisor	^^ less chance of scraping, the front is higher than the s-techs Are you in SoCal? Come to our CStC meets! Located in Socal? Need something Installed? Have a question and no one is willing to help? Shoot me a PM or hit me up on AIM.
[#] Sep 21, 2007 02:34am
curtislo9 Washington, US Master Mechanic	But the rear end is .2 inches lower than the s techs. Shouldn't the rear end be what id be worried about for scraping? Sorry Im not an expert just probing with questions.
[#] Sep 21, 2007 03:10am
Web Maryland, US THE SHADOW	I've got Tanabe NF210s and I only rubbed 2 times in 20K+ b/c I didn't turn going into my drive way and just backed out straight. My car sits flat from front to rear with about the same gap, if not a hair less in the rear to make if flat vs. having that rake angle look. Not a fan of the cheese wedge style. Complaining is futile when you supported the victory. http://clubsciontc.com/fo...-rims--5x100-pattern.html
[#] Sep 21, 2007 07:59am
babydabbs North Carolina, US Tire Changer	i have the tein springs on my car. and she is DROPPED LOW. and okay, this might sound completly stupid, so dont hold me to it, but isnt the rear end supposed to be higher on a front wheel drive. well mayb not jus that, but with the take off that the tc has, when you get on it, wouldnt the tires scrub in the fender well if the rear end was lower. i mean, yeah, the tein springs have a lower front end, but my ehaust still scrubs, even when my front lip dont, on some speed bumps...so idk maybe i dont kno! aim sn; craziecowgurl17
[#] Sep 21, 2007 08:29am
Rabid_Lemming Cumming Georgia, US Scion Guru	babydabbs wrote: i have the tein springs on my car. and she is DROPPED LOW. and okay, this might sound completly stupid, so dont hold me to it, but isnt the rear end supposed to be higher on a front wheel drive. well mayb not jus that, but with the take off that the tc has, when you get on it, wouldnt the tires scrub in the fender well if the rear end was lower. i mean, yeah, the tein springs have a lower front end, but my ehaust still scrubs, even when my front lip dont, on some speed bumps...so idk maybe i dont kno! On a FF vehicle like ours, it is advantageous to have the front lower than the rear. While the balance of the car is more biased towards the front, thereby making scrubbing the rear less likely, a forward rake will shift more of the weight of the car forward, giving a slight increase in launch traction, as well as resisting the inertial forces you mentioned which would tend to squat the car on a hard launch. My car isn't the fastest car out there, but I'll tell ya.... Sometimes I haul more ass than a pimp driving a caddy full of hoes. Me to Pathik at PRacing.com about modding cars "It's like crack, but you don't lose as much weight...also you don't blow people for performance parts. So I guess it's nothing like crack"
[#] Sep 21, 2007 09:50am
Web Maryland, US THE SHADOW	Yeah, it all depends on the type of driving and racing you do as well. The flatter a car is to the ground, the better it takes J-hook turns without spinning out. The more balanced the weight transfer of the vehicle, the more easily it's overall weight is transferred throughout a turn. In a launch, the slight raise in the rear is best to prevent squatting (as mentioned). But, that can be taken care of with better suspension upgrades as well. For the most part, the wedge style is better for aerodynamics and overall stability at high speeds but....you can compensate with other modifications if you chose to go another route. Complaining is futile when you supported the victory. http://clubsciontc.com/fo...-rims--5x100-pattern.html
[#] Sep 21, 2007 12:19pm
Mayo Rockville Maryland, US *The Guru*	Nice explainations Rabid. I think I've heard rake angle used as the angle of the windshield but I guess I learned something new today Im not sure, but I think the front end being lower might create a diffuser effect for our cars as well. Of course the diffuser is not very exaggerated and the limited speed of the tC would also take away from the effect but it might be more than having a leveled drop. See, air is a fluid, so when the diffuser allows the air flow to expand while exiting under the car, the air flow increases in velocity. This creates a vacuum effect increasing the velocity of the air under the car as well. In turn, air pressure under the car lowers and the downward force on the car increases. Cars like Ferraris to the rx-8 use diffusers. But does anyone else think a lower front end would help create this effect? "gonna wash my car before i take a nap.. can't rest well knowing i've got the entire cast of A Bug's Life on my bumper" - Vicious -- Want to post a "For Sale" thread? Check out the rules first.
[#] Sep 21, 2007 12:26pm
Orin Auburn Alabama, US	a lower front end would create a downforce effect at high speeds, but the draw back is hard braking effectiveness would be reduced it's better to have a slightly balanced ride so either at hard launch or hard braking, weight would transfer smoothly just enough drop at the front would allow the weight to move to the front of the vehicle, increasing tracting during a hard stop as mentioned above, it's best to choose a drop based on your style of driving and use
[#] Sep 21, 2007 12:33pm
Mayo Rockville Maryland, US *The Guru*	If the front end is lowered substantially, is the caster angle changed? It seems like it would be, and that it would affect steering. "gonna wash my car before i take a nap.. can't rest well knowing i've got the entire cast of A Bug's Life on my bumper" - Vicious -- Want to post a "For Sale" thread? Check out the rules first.
[#] Sep 21, 2007 12:36pm
Web Maryland, US THE SHADOW	Caster angles for our car are minimally effected with the kits they offer so far (TRD, Tein...). When you get into kits that begin to tuck the wheels into the wheel well and have more "extreme" settings, then the caster will be effected. 2.0" drops really don't mess with much other than camber/toe. Caster comes into play with drops of around 2.5"+ I'll double check with the tire tech. Complaining is futile when you supported the victory. http://clubsciontc.com/fo...-rims--5x100-pattern.html
[#] Sep 21, 2007 01:25pm
Rabid_Lemming Cumming Georgia, US Scion Guru	Hey Web, we have a slightly positive caster out of the factory right? My car isn't the fastest car out there, but I'll tell ya.... Sometimes I haul more ass than a pimp driving a caddy full of hoes. Me to Pathik at PRacing.com about modding cars "It's like crack, but you don't lose as much weight...also you don't blow people for performance parts. So I guess it's nothing like crack"
[#] Sep 21, 2007 01:27pm
Web Maryland, US THE SHADOW	I do believe that is correct. Positive caster is when the tire is closer to the front of the car in the wheel well and negative caster is when the tire is further back in the wheel well towards the rear of the car. Stock, we are actually pretty centered but probably have a few 1/10s of a degree positive caster. The only time caster becomes an issue is with 3-4" drops and getting longer or shorter suspension components (control arms, tie rods...). Longer components will allow more positive caster (tire pushed further towards the front of the wheel well...and shorter components will allow for more negative caster (tire towards the rear of the wheel well. Most of the time though, all we really have to worry about is toe (inward/outward pointing of the tread) and camber (tilt of the tire towards the engine or away from it. Complaining is futile when you supported the victory. http://clubsciontc.com/fo...-rims--5x100-pattern.html
[#] Sep 21, 2007 01:39pm
Web Maryland, US THE SHADOW	I asked him about my setup and he said it's setup like some Porsches. The flatter the car, the more even braking and weight transfer it has. This leads to better cornering and a slight improvement in braking. With a lower nose setup, more weight is transferred to the front brakes and causes them to become overloaded and work harder. If they aren't strong enough or have good braking material on them, they will cause brake fade and loss of stopping power. The flatter drop allows the rear brakes to be used a bit more causing a more improved long distance brake effect and less nose dive in hard braking. Complaining is futile when you supported the victory. http://clubsciontc.com/fo...-rims--5x100-pattern.html
[#] Sep 21, 2007 01:48pm

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